Why not offending the religious is bullshit

As I mentioned a couple weeks back, there is a debate within the atheist/secular community about the best approach to spreading the message that we exist and care about things. Briefly, the two camps boil down into accommodationists – those who think we should be working with religious groups and believers to find common ground, and confrontationalists – those who think that the preferable approach is to be assertive and not worry about making people feel good. Daniel Schaeller prefers the terms ‘diplomats’ and ‘firebrands’, which I think is an apt (and less unwieldy) characterization.

If it’s not clear from the way I write here (and the title on the top of this post), I ally myself more closely with the firebrands. While I recognize the simultaneous facts that a) both approaches are crucial to advance the secular position, and b) that the diplomats will get all the credit when the dust clears, I have never been one to shy away from controversy in the name of sparing people’s feelings. But there’s another issue in the mix that seemingly goes without comment.

Most of you have probably heard of Richard Dawkins, the British biologist and professor who is the author of books like The God Delusion, The Ancestor’s Tale, Climbing Mount Improbable, and most recently The Greatest Show on Earth. Undoubtedly if you’re not familiar with his work, you’ve simply heard that he’s a militant asshole. In fact, the term ‘militant atheist’ gets thrown around so much that I find myself being accused of being just as bad as those who murder in the name of their religion, as though clearly expressing my thoughts on a blog is the same as killing someone.

Here’s the problem. Richard Dawkins is not a militant asshole. He’s a nerd from England who likes poetry and evolutionary biology – that’s it. What is his major crime that has earned him the appellation of ‘militant’? He wrote some books and has given some speeches. He also refuses to pretend as though the weaksauce apologies for religion are worth more than the air it takes to utter them. But because he’s talking about religion, he’s somehow violent and hateful. Well I’m sorry, but that’s bullshit, and here are some reasons why.

1. Coptic Pope Apologizes for Insulting Islam

Earlier, Bishop Bishoy had said that – contrary to Muslim belief – some verses of the Koran may have been inserted after the death of Prophet Muhammad. Egypt’s al-Azhar Islamic authority said the comments threatened national unity… “Debating religious beliefs are a red line, a deep red line,” Pope Shenouda said in the television interview on Sunday. “The simple fact of bringing up the subject was inappropriate, and escalating the matter is inappropriate,” he added.

This is the religious mindset, when allowed to take root in the public conscience. Not only does a comment made by a member of one religious organization – made about a different organization – threaten national unity, but even talking about beliefs is somehow inappropriate. Can you imagine if someone from the Canadian government made an announcement that debating economic policy or health care or military involvement was “a deep red line” that couldn’t even be discussed? They’d be laughed out of the room, or perhaps chased out with pitchforks. And yet, when a religious person says something so breathtakingly stupid, we’re just supposed to follow along. If we don’t, then we’re somehow militant.

You want militant? I’ve got your militant right here:

2. Austrian temple shooting yields convictions

An Austrian court has convicted six Indian men in connection with a gun attack in a temple in Vienna in which a visiting preacher was killed. Indian preacher Sant Ramanand, 57, was shot dead and more than a dozen others wounded, including another preacher… Prosecutors say the men had planned the attack on the visiting preacher because of a religious dispute. The men went on the rampage wielding a gun and knives during a temple service attended by about 150 people.

That is what a militant position looks like. Ideas that do not conform to your own are not met with skepticism or even outright dismissal, but violence. The lives of those who disagree with your position are forfeit. People who think differently from you deserve to die. Assuming the men in the court case were literate they could have written a book. Even if they weren’t literate they probably could have started a blog (the internet has pretty low standards). They could have protested. They could have said “I am secure enough in my beliefs that I will completely ignore your obvious stupidity.” But that’s not what a militant does. What a militant does is get 5 friends, board a plane to another country, and then try to shoot and stab 150 people. And yet, when firebrand atheists point this out, the immediate response is that we are “no better” than these terrorist fuckbags for being vocally opposed to religion in public life.

The religious shouldn’t be worried about atheists, they should be worrying about each other:

3. Palestinian mosque set on fire

Israel is investigating Palestinian reports that a mosque in the West Bank has been set alight by Jewish settlers. Palestinian officials say settlers set fire to the mosque in Beit Fajjar, near the town of Bethlehem. They blame residents of a nearby settlement because the arsonists reportedly scrawled Hebrew graffiti on one of the mosque’s walls.

I recognize that the conflict between Israel and Palestine is beyond my full understanding. It is a complex issue involving history, geography, foreign political influence, and xenophobia. However, when it asserts itself in the form of the destruction of religious buildings, it’s difficult for anyone to try and say that religion doesn’t play a central role in the problem.

So I challenge those who would use the phrase ‘militant atheist’ to do the following: find me one example of threats of the destruction of national unity, or mass murder, or the destruction of religious buildings, committed by atheists in the name of atheism, and I will make you a batch of delicious cookies.

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  1. #1 by dale on October 12, 2010 - 6:36 am

    If I make a threat myself do I get the cookies? Damn, you know it wont be serious.

    Never stop being outspoken. Always enjoy your discourse.

  2. #2 by Natassia on October 12, 2010 - 7:44 am

    I found this to be amusing.

    Have I actually stumbled upon an atheist who is not a PC multiculturalist pansy?

    Do you really believe that confrontation is what’s necessary to prevent our society from being overrun by barbarians?

    Isn’t that maybe, just maybe, why the Jews haven’t submitted to the demands of their neighboring Arabs?

    • #3 by Crommunist on October 12, 2010 - 8:03 am

      “Have I actually stumbled upon an atheist who is not a PC multiculturalist pansy?”

      Probably not as much as you’d like. To get a read on my level of pansiness, you’ll probably want to take a look through other stuff I’ve written.

    • #4 by Crommunist on October 12, 2010 - 8:06 am

      Ooh, just read your stuff! An anti-choice homophobe atheist! Do you have any idea how rare you are? It’s like finding a unicorn!

      I have to draw you…

      • #5 by Natassia on October 12, 2010 - 3:46 pm

        Obviously you didn’t read my stuff too well. I’m not an atheist, number one.

        And number two, I have no phobias…well, maybe I’d qualify as Islamophobic, but that’s another story for another day.

        Three, I am not “anti-choice.” I just think the choice starts with sex and ends with the creation of a new life.

      • #6 by Crommunist on October 12, 2010 - 6:15 pm

        I’m quoting here from your blog:

        It seems like we are in an era that not only exhibits vulgarity freely, but we revel in it. We celebrate it. We hold parades of pride for our sexual deviancy as we scream “It’s no one’s business what we do in our bedrooms and who we do it with!”

        You might not call it homophobia, but it is. You could call it delicious chocolatey ice cream – it’s still homophobia. Similarly, you might not call saying that since you don’t like abortion that nobody can have one an anti-choice position, but it is.

        You also appear to be anti-vulva, which is a position I don’t even want to understand :P

        And as far as the division between an agnostic and an atheist, you can mince words all you want. If you live your life as though there was no God, you’re an atheist.

  3. #7 by Natassia on October 12, 2010 - 8:09 pm

    There’s nothing “homophobic” about what I wrote.

    And now you’re forcing me to get all pedantic on you.

    Phobia = a persistent, irrational fear of a specific object, activity, or situation that leads to a compelling desire to avoid it.

    Just recently I visited a gay night club, engaged in some pretty interesting conversations with a lesbian who was very disappointed to find out that I was married with children, and ended up having quite a heart-to-heart with a gay man who was distressed that his ex-boyfriend (with whom he had a very ugly break-up) had shown up at the club with his catty friends. And then I danced with a man whose sexual orientation I wasn’t too sure of, but he was very nice.

    I am not afraid of homosexuals. Nor do I have a compelling desire to avoid them. :)

    deviation = departure from a standard or norm

    If the success of a species is dependent upon its ability to reproduce, than it goes without saying that the standard sexual behavior of a mammal would be heterosexual in nature. That’s the norm. That’s been the norm for mankind since he first evolved, and I’m sure it was the norm for all his ancestors as well. Therefore, homosexual behavior is deviant.

    Nothing homophobic about that either. Just stating facts.

    You just don’t like the words I used because they aren’t PC. :P Well, I don’t care.

    I’m not anti-vulva. I just think it’s an ugly word and it is an ugly looking apparatus. Have you looked at one lately? Bleh. It’s one of the many reasons I am not a lesbian.

    I am not an agnostic either, silly Cromm.

    • #8 by Crommunist on October 12, 2010 - 8:54 pm

      I’m overwhelmingly unimpressed by your ability to redefine terms to suit your purposes. You’re not afraid of gay people, you just think that they’re sexual deviants. But not deviants in a bad way, in a statistical sense. See? No bigotry here, you’re just stating some facts.

      It’s a common tactic used by people with bigoted opinions, somehow hoping to bamboozle the gullible with semantic sophistry. I’m really not interested in biting, or pretending to be as stupid as your weak attempts at wit are implying. Either you’re using the language coined by anti-gay bigots and pretending not to see the implied association (in which case your tactic is dishonest), or you’re doing it with full knowledge and then trying to weasel out of it when called on it (in which case your tactic is cowardly).

      Also why is it that only conservatives (although I’m sure you’ll swear up and down that you aren’t one of those either, forcing me to continue this ridiculous guessing game) seem to shorten my name in comments? We’re not friends, and your feigned familiarity is unwarranted and condescending. I’m sure you get some smug sense of satisfaction out of playing your word games – I hope your exercise in intellectual masturbation continues to be entertaining to you, because nobody else is enjoying it.

      • #9 by Natassia on October 13, 2010 - 8:50 am

        I didn’t want to get all Christian on you by actually implying that there is a right way to have sex and a wrong way. I mean, then I might actually be making a judgment call about behavior and — gasp — that would be so intolerant of me, God forbid.

        I didn’t want to get your proverbial panties in a twist. :)

        But, if you want to go down that road, I believe that sex is a good thing generally, but like all good things in this world (like wine and chocolate), without temperance and self-control it can become be used for ill, especially against ones own body and soul.

        If you want to call that “bigoted,” okay. I’m not really concerned with the bigotry charge. It is over-used, and the word, like racism, has lost its potency. And I have yet to hear a logical reason for why it is wrong to be bigoted.

        But to call me “homophobic” is just plain silly.

        Seriously, why did this discussion have to be about me? I don’t like talking about me when the whole reason that I came here was to talk about YOU and what you believe.

        Cromm, I shorten your name because I’m lazy…and maybe because I like the sound of it…and maybe, just maybe, because I want to bother you. Ever heard of Cromm Crúaich?

      • #10 by Crommunist on October 13, 2010 - 9:14 am

        If you think there is a “right” way to have sex, you’ve failed to provide any convincing justification for your position. If it is, as you seem to be suggesting, based on the Biblical proscriptions, then you’ll have to explain why you’re happy to follow some Biblical commandments but not others, how you deal with the inconsistencies within the Bible (which impeaches its validity as a reliable document), and how you know (not believe, but know with evidence) that the Bible, as opposed to the Qur’an/Torah/Vedas/etc., is the correct holy book to follow.

        If you just think it’s wrong because you don’t like butt sex, then don’t have butt sex. Simple.

        And yes, when your position is to condemn a person or group of people with no other justification than “this book says so,” or “it’s gross,” and the cumulative effect of such condemnation is that people are harassed, assaulted, killed, and/or driven to suicide, there is a very strong logical position why being bigoted is injurious to both individual people and society at large. The inverse case, where people are required to deal with ideas or lifestyles that they don’t endorse, does no demonstrable damage or injury – nobody is being assaulted for not liking gay people, any more than people are currently being assaulted for not liking reality TV.

        For regular readers watching this exchange, note the use of the term “I believe” in that third paragraph.

        You definitely don’t shorten my name out of laziness. Again, I’m sure that kind of tactic works against morons, but there’s precious few of those here. It’s purely as a condescending and antagonistic (not to mention childish) attempt to diminish my position because your arguments are without validity. You’ll notice that my responses to your other comments have been about the issues you raise, not you personally. I simply mistook you for a conservative atheist, which you clearly are not (my sincere apologies for the mischaracterization), which struck me as rare considering that most skeptic atheists use logic and evidence as tools rather than… well, whatever you use.

  4. #11 by Natassia on October 13, 2010 - 2:23 pm

    Crommie, ol’ buddy, ol’ pal –

    (Sorry, now I’m just being an ass.)

    I don’t have to justify my beliefs, just as I do not believe you have to justify yours. You certainly never asked me for justification, and I certainly was not implying that you should believe what I believe in the first place.

    Would you like me to justify my beliefs?

    I had a hard time getting through all your straw man arguments, but I did enjoy your rather rigorous attempt to tear them down.

    Bravo. Good show, blasting those hypocritical cherry-pickers and emotional nit-wits.

    P.S. I shorten your name because I dislike the “unist” part. It’s probably that free spirit in me that I just can’t seem to contain. Damn you, you evil Tea Partier!

    • #12 by Crommunist on October 13, 2010 - 2:27 pm

      Funnily enough, I was “Crommie” before I was “Crommunist”

      Well if I have said things that don’t correspond to your beliefs, I once again apologize. It is a sensitive issue for me, particularly when people treat it so glibly – as a result I may find myself occasionally responding to what I think I’m being told rather than the actual substance. At any rate, it’s always interesting to meet a dissenting voice. I hope you’ll stick around and keep poking me to ensure I remain fair.

      • #13 by Natassia on October 13, 2010 - 6:00 pm

        I’ve already decided that I like you, and so I have a feeling you’ll feel my antagonistic poke every once in a while.

        P.S. You can shorten my name if you want to. Kids used to call me “Nat-ass” in high school. :)

      • #14 by Crommunist on October 13, 2010 - 6:42 pm

        Oh sure, I try to poke girls I like and they call me a ‘sex offender’. Stupid double-standard.

  5. #15 by G. Syme on October 18, 2010 - 5:47 am

    All this bickering has distracted people from the wager you made in the article itself. Goody :D

    I offer the French Revolution, particularly the Jacobins. You can’t say forcibly subsuming the Church into the state and drowning the occasional priest wasn’t destructive. Are we drawing a distinction between secularism and atheism?

    I live in Australia, so if you could airmail my cookies that would be super.

    • #16 by Crommunist on October 18, 2010 - 7:52 am

      “There is no god, therefore it is permissible to execute priests”

      I’m pretty sure that the French Revolution was about usurping the role that had been held by the Church and establishing a forced secularism, rather than an expression of an argument from atheism. Similar to Stalin’s Russia, it wasn’t so much an atheist agenda as much as it was anti-church, an attempt for the state to assume the power that had been held by the clergy.

      My chocolate chips remain safe… for now.

      Thanks for your comment though. How did you find your way here from Australia? Ah, from Blaghag. Excellent. I am not Daniel Schaeller, though. His blog is quite good too though.

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